In the world ofPerpetual Groove this is about as good as it gets: On Friday, November 18th, 2011, the band will walk onstage at its beloved hometown venue, The Georgia Theater, for the first time in over two years. It will do so featuring the definitive line-up of Brock Butler (Guitar), Matt McDonald (Keyboards), Adam Perry (Bass) and Albert Suttle (Drums) for the first time in over 3 years.
For those who don’t know, The Theater, as it’s called by folks in and around the Southeast, was tragically burned down in 2009. However, it was painstakingly rebuilt, revamped and revitalized in ways hardly imaginable before, and stands, once again, as a testament to the legendary music scene in Athens.
The great American novelist Thomas Wolfe is known for coining the enduring cultural aphorism, “You can’t go home again.” This phrase comes from the finale of the novel when protagonist George Webber realizes, "You can't go back home to your family, back home to your childhood... Back home to a young man's dreams of glory, and of fame... Back home to places in the country, and to old forms and systems of things which once seemed everlasting, but which are changing all the time — Back home to the escapes of Time and Memory."
My guess is that on Friday evening, the guys in Perpetual Groove may have something to say about that. Not only do they return to the physical confines of The Theater, but also to a metaphysical space. A space filled with dreams of glory, and of fame... A space that - to this author - once seemed everlasting... And a space thought long gone — A space featuring the one and only Matt McDonald on keyboards. So for one night and one night alone, PGroove and its ardent fanbase, get to go home again. If I know anything about this band, it’s that everything afterward will about moving forward, and likely in ways you couldn’t possibly begin to imagine.
INTERVIEWER
Matt, this must all, at some level, feel kinda strange for you in that, well, you were a very public figure for awhile, but I imagine the last couple of years has been pretty quiet. Now, all of a sudden, you're transitioning yourself back into the limelight.
MATT MCDONALD
Well it’s been incredibly private, but not very quiet. I’ve done lots and lots of session work, and I also have been working in the medical field. [My wife] Kelly and I had a son 14 months ago. I have two older kids as well, but Kelly and I now have a baby and a mortgage like everyone else. So, I wouldn’t necessarily describe it as quiet (laugh), but most definitely private.
INTERVIEWER
What kind of session work have you been doing?
MCDONALD
I was fortunate enough to do a couple of big country albums from artists that came through [Athens], and I’ve also been playing at the Athens Country Club pretty regularly. You know, keeping my jazz piano chops in shape. I’ve been able to play an awful lot, but yeah, I haven’t been in the public eye much, and my opinion has definitely changed [from where they were 3 1/2 years ago].
INTERVIEWER
How so?
MCDONALD
There are enough things in the world right now that are divisive and have a tendency to alienate people. I don’t want to add to that in any way, shape or form. The political climate during the latter part of my previous tenure was a lot more volatile, and I probably would have been better served if I had not voiced my opinion as much. I definitely won't be doing that in the future.
INTERVIEWER
So Albert, what's this transition period going to look like? Can you give me an idea of how things are going to play out? I'm sure the fans will be asking a lot of questions. Maybe we clear up any misconceptions ahead of time.
ALBERT SUTTLE
We’ve got a few more shows with John [Hruby] after The Theater gig, and then he’ll move on. New Year’s will be with both John and Matt on keys. They’ll be switching out, and sometimes they’ll be playing together, too, but after [New Year’s] we’ll make the full transition over to Matt. And it’s all going to happen pretty fast.
INTERVIEWER
How have the rehearsals been going Matt? It sounds like you've got a lot of ground to cover over the next month or so. Are you getting up to speed on the newer material?
MCDONALD
The Rehearsals have been going extremely well. The guys sent me all the new material that’s been written since my departure, and I’ve been working mostly on that. Obviously, I’m brushing up on some of the old tunes as well, but fortunately those have been kind of like riding a bike... You know, once I play through them a couple of times it all comes back. Brock came up here and spent the past weekend with Kelly and me. We restructured all the vocals because John and I have very different ranges. I have a much lower voice than he does, so essentially [Brock and I] are switching parts.
INTERVIEWER
Matt, you mentioned to me earlier that this shouldn’t be viewed by the fans, or anyone else for that matter, as a return to a specific lineup or sound. Can you expand on that some?
MCDONALD
Sure. It's important to understand that while the players might be the same [as a previous era], we’ve all evolved - as musicians, as friends, as partners and just as people [in general]. You’re going to see me take the lead on some of the vocals. We are already talking about writing new material, because all of us have a bunch of stuff we’ve been sitting on. Once Jam Cruise ends, we are going to setup a guitar rig on my side of the stage as well. This will take some people by surprise, but it's going to open a lot of doors for us. I'm really excited about it because we will be able to write and execute completely different material.
INTERVIEWER
Wow. That’s really exciting news. It’s refreshing to hear you talk in those terms. I knew there was no way you guys were going to approach this era as - for lack of a better word - a recital band, you know, traveling around the country and playing the same old tunes and whatnot. That’s a whole different level risk-taking than even I had in mind. Bravo. In my book, that's what it's all about.
MCDONALD
This is something we’ve been talking about for a while. There was a period when we were talking about doing something together under a different name, and making it kind of a two guitar band. Things have morphed and changed quite a bit since then, but we still think it’s a great idea. So why not do it in the context of Perpetual Groove? I was a guitar major in college, and fortunately, I’ve kept my [guitar] chops in pretty good shape. I think you’re going to see a lot of different things coming from the band. This is going to be an evolution, as all things in life should be.
INTERVIEWER
Sounds like you're feeling pretty good about your guitar chops... It's good to know you weren’t just sitting around twiddling your thumbs these past few years.
MCDONALD
Yeah, well, except when I'm playing Halo with Albert, because that definitely qualifies as sitting around twiddling my thumbs [laughs].
SUTTLE
Yeah, it happens [laughs].
MCDONALD
You definitely don’t want to look too closely at our Xbox live accounts, because you’ll see far too many hours logged into video games.
INTERVIEWER
What’s your keyboard situation going to look like? Will you be using the same rig as before?
MCDONALD
No, I have a much smaller rig now. Basically, I’m just using Main Stage [off of my computer]. However, I’m going to be acquiring some new gear over the next couple of weeks. It’s kind of the secret machine in my arsenal. So, I’m going to reacquire that piece of gear and start programming on that immediately. Also, [PGroove] owns a Moog Voyager that I will be using onstage. It’s been at my house for about a week now. Actually, I’ve been on the phone with the Moog guys a lot the past few days, and they’ve been overwhelmingly generous with their time. They’ve been helping me update the Voyager’s software so that it’s healthy and ready to go.
INTERVIEWER
What about an organ? That’s definitely one of your signature sounds, at least as far as my ears are concerned.
MCDONALD
It’s going to be a couple of months before I incorporate an organ into my stage rig again. That’s not to say that I won’t be using organ sounds, but my keyboard rig is significantly more compact than it used to be. I’ve been running Main Stage for about two years now, and it’s actually a much nicer way to go.
INTERVIEWER
Let’s close with some thoughts on this Friday's gig at The Georgia Theater. I know it's a special venue for you guys, and so I'd love to just hear you talk about it generally. Also, what can the fans expect in the way of surprise, like special tunes coming off the shelf and whatnot? Albert, why don't you jump in on this one...
SUTTLE
It's going to be a great crowd, just in terms of the energy, and so we're expecting to have a really good time. At this point, we've talked our way through most of the important 'pre-game' issues like the setlist selections and who's going to play on what tunes. We're also planning to do a special cover tune to commemorate the occasion. The rumor about [Matt's return] is starting to slip out a little bit, and there's definitely some added fervor because of it. At the end of the day, we're just trying to do what's best for the fans, and as Matt alluded to earlier, we are really looking at this as an evolution, in every sense of the word.
MCDONALD
To answer your question about old songs coming off the shelf and whatnot, you can expect to see a lot more of that once the official transition with John Hruby takes place at the upcoming New Year's show. John and I will be onstage together a good bit [at The Theater], not only because we enjoy it, but also because we want to present a clear message [to the fans]. This is an amicable transition, a passing of the torch if you will, and the song selections were made to reinforce those sentiments. The Georgia Theater is our home away from home. Perpetual Groove was scheduled to perform there on the same day it burned down. We had plans to play together then, but we ended up at the Classic Center instead. So as far as old songs coming back, we're going to put that in our pocket until the New Year’s show because it seems more appropriate. This Friday will be more of a celebration of being back at The Theater, and of embracing change. We just want to put on a good party for everyone to throw down, and you know, have a good time, and we want the audience to participate in that as much as possible.
* This article was published by JamBase on November 18th, 2011
Thanks so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to visit with me. You know, back in the good old days, we would 'geek out' (about the music) in the corner of an after party, but it's an honor to be able to share one of these discussions with the general public.
BROCK BUTLER
Certainly. Thanks for the interest, and I think I speak for the rest of the guys when I say, we really appreciate all the interest and effort you’ve made towards us (PGroove) over the years.
INTERVIEWER
My pleasure. I'll start with a little background... So the basic idea behind this blog is to foster great discussions with some of my favorite musicians, and also to cover some of the topics that aren't really being covered anywhere else. I find that the major (media) outlets tend focus on album and concert promotion instead of say, the art and science of making music.
BUTLER
Great. Where do you wanna start?
INTERVIEWER
I think I'll begin by asking you a follow up question. When you and I first met (back in 2003), I asked you what you were working on in the woodshed, and you said - and I'm paraphrasing - "That you were really trying to play less... You wanted leave more space for the guys to develop a groove around you." Do you feel like - over these past several years - you’ve been successful at doing that?
BUTLER
Yeah, I'd like to think my playing has really developed in that respect. And not just technique-wise, but also in the way I compose songs, and my overall philosophy in general. Music doesn’t have to be complicated to be moving or inspiring. Sometimes, all it takes is four simple parts to make something powerful.
INTERVIEWER
Right on... I watched The Graduate for the first time the other night, and the soundtrack - featuring Simon and Garfunkel - is a perfect example of that mindset.
BUTLER
Oh yeah. Definitely.
INTERVIEWER
Compositionally, those tunes are incredibly simple - you know, just an acoustic folk guitar with vocal harmonies - but it never feels like they're missing anything.
BUTLER
That's really one of Paul Simon's great artistic qualities. You know, the understatement of certain parts... (The Graduate soundtrack) really illustrates the point at hand. As you know, I’m a big Paul Simon fan.
INTERVIEWER
We both are. For me, it goes way back to the beginning of my relationship with music. One of my first childhood memories is riding around in the car with my Mother listening to Graceland album.
BUTLER
(Graceland) is really a testament of it's era, and I think it's fair to classify it as timeless piece of music. I mean, it went through the 80’s with artistic integrity, (laugh), which is a feat in and of itself...
INTERVIEWER
Yeah, no kidding...I'm not terribly familar with the history and/or backstory (behind the album), but I believe (Paul Simon) went to Africa to source a bunch of these musicians...
BUTLER
Oh yeah, he traveled all around (the continent) to find players for this band. Thats how he got involved with Ladysmith Black Mambazo (LSBM). You know, the group that does the, "(Brock Singing in the style of LSBM's)." Originally, LSBM was just a vocal group, all to themselves.
INTERVIEWER
Their vocal work is incredible. I especially like the tune called Homeless, which features some of the a capella work you're talking about. It gives me goosebumps everytime I listen to it. (See video below)
Paul Simon & Ladysmith Black Mambazo - Homeless - Live in Africa
BUTLER
Musically, there is so much going on (on that album) and sure, there's some terrific (individual) musicianship on display - especially the bass - but ultimately, it's the stacked polyrhythms that really make that album work.
INTERVIEWER
It seems like Paul Simon gives him alot more room (to be creative), while keeping rest of the band on a tighter leash...
BUTLER
Totally. If you listen to the guitar work on that album, it's almost like a Fela Kuti type thing, "(Brock Scatting Fela Kuti Guitar Riffs)" which really gives the bass a lot more room to add - for lack of a better word - a little pizazz...
INTERVIEWER
It cool to hear you scatting. You know, that's something I've been doing - almost obsessively - for a couple of years now... In my car, in the shower, in the studio, really just about anywhere. It started after I attended a workshop with - the jazz musician and educator - Dave Liebeman. He kept going on and on about the importance of transcribing instrumental solos away from your instrument, by using just your voice and your ears to reproduce every tiny detail - Rhythm, Pitch, Articulation, Dynamics - of a solo. Then - and only then - we're you allowed to start learning it on your respective instrument. It's an incredibly effective technique. Leib's really got me hip to the fact that your voice is connected to ears, and your hands really aren't...
BUTLER
I used to practice - in the pitch dark - where I couldn't see my hands, because I've always wanted - whether I was aware of it or not - for the guitar to feel as natural to me as speaking. I want to connect my hands to my voice without the barrier of conscious thought. If I'm humming a melody, I want to be able to hum with my fingers. I want to know where the notes are before I even play them.
Brock Butler of Perpetual Groove
INTERVIEWER
So basically you're trying make the creative process as instinctual as possible?
BUTLER
Exactly. Say you were going to do a kind of a blindfold test by giving me a guitar that I couldn't see or hear... I could probably do pretty well on just on muscle memory alone.
INTERVIEWER
Wow! I never knew your were so focused on building strong connections between your fingers and your ears. I wish I had realized the importance of this when I was first getting started, and that's probably why I'm a little bit obsessive about it now. I'm always trying to find new ways to get my ears more involved. You have any suggestions?
BUTLER
Try playing around with some different tunings and don't be afraid to branch out to other stringed instruments. I bought a baritone ukelele which I've been playing as of late, and I've been trying to get more comfortable on the banjo.
INTERVIEWER
Do you mind if I ask you a few questions about the first 'official' studio album, Sweet Oblivious Antidote?
BUTLER
Not at all.
INTERVIEWER
That's an incredible album, on so many different levels. Earlier this year I spent time transcribing a few of my songs off of it. Transcribing someone else's music is a really interesting process. Often times once I've finished learning every little nuiance and detail of a particular song, I can't stand to hear it anymore. In the same way that if you really love ice cream, never, ever, work in a ice parlor. You know, too much of a good thing syndrome. All that being said, I still love the SOA album, although I definitely had to shelve it for a couple of months to clear out my ears.
BUTLER
(Laughing)
INTERVIEWER
In my opinion, that's the best stuff you guys have ever done in a studio setting... 3 Weeks, TSMM, Sun Dog, Perihelion, Playground, Robot Waltz. I mean, those are all classic tunes in my book. As a musician and a guitar player, Sundog really interests me?
BUTLER
What about it?
INTERVIEWER
Well, I guess I'll start with the basics, and work out from the there... When it was written and by whom?
BUTLER
Actually it was something our bass player Adam came up with... He wrote the main hook, you know the one that goes something like, "(Brock Scatting Sun Dog Theme)."So initially, I tried to lock into that theme a couple different ways. First by just experimenting with different harmonies, and secondly by varying my picking articulation.
Adam Perry of Perpetual Groove
INTERVIEWER
Expand on that...
BUTLER
So for example, the first two times it's played with a slight palm mute, the second time it's a very tight palm mute - almost to the point where it's entirely percussive, and the third time it's open - or more legato style.
Reader's Note: I've included three audio clips for those interested.
It didn't take me very long to pick up the actual notes and rhythm of the line, but I definitely struggled with the articulations you just mentioned. And while we're talking about it, I'm curious, do you play this theme in the open position?
BUTLER
Yeah, I do...
INTERVIEWER
That's the way I play it too... The open position really lets you anchor down to keep the high G note ringing above the melody... Allowing the line to create a sense of implied counterpoint.
BUTLER
Yeah. Actually, the whole song is kinda based off a G anchor note. Eventually it moves through a few different modes - including dorian and mixolydian - but that G is everpresent.
INTERVIEWER
Yeah, Sundog is like a textbook for anyone interested in modal theme and variation. This is a slight tangent, but it's interesting, so I'll share it with you...
BUTLER
Sure.
INTERVIEWER
I learned how to play (Sun Dog) during a pretty crazy period. I was playing a lot of guitar... Probably averaging between 6 to 8 hours a day on the instrument, in addition to my 40 hour/week job as a finance geek. It's safe to say I wasn't getting a whole lot of sleep, but that's another issue entirely. So I'd spend a couple hours practicing Sun Dog, and then I'd move on to something else. In this case, the something else, was single-string modal soloing. A concept I picked up from Mick Goodrick's book The Advancing Guitarist. This was one of the most valuable exercises I ever come across, but the reason I mention it is because the second movement of Sun Dog is exactly that... Single String modal vamps.
BUTLER
The 2nd Movement?
INTERVIEWER
Yeah.
BUTLER
That section has kind of a Yes, Heart of the Sunrise feel to it. Really, it's all based around that one droning G. In my earlier attempts at doing lead work, I very much found myself prone to keeping my pointer finger planted or anchored because it gave me something to find my way back to, and when I moved up to using loops, I would set (record) that one note and begin moving all around it.
INTERVIEWER
Speaking of lead work.. Lets talk about the solo section of Sun Dog for a moment.
BUTLER
Ok.
INTERVIEWER
This section really separates the men from the boys. I thought my chops were in pretty decent shape before learning this (Laugh). I mean, I had been playing - what I considered to be - some very uptempo material, pretty regularly, but this section absolutely kicked my ass. It took two or three months of consistent work to get this even close to concert tempo. So I guess my first question is, how in the world did you learn to Tremolo pick like that? (See Video Below)
Perpetual Groove - Sun Dog (Solo) - Smilefest 2004
BUTLER
With regards to that section, I've always felt like I have a very strong attribute in my right (picking) hand, where a lot of guitarist's feel the bulk of it is in your left hand. The key is to be able to keep that right hand very tight and very steady in order to get those 32nd notes. Also, if you anchor down on the lower G with your left hand, you can do some legato stuff.
INTERVIEWER
Harmonically speaking, you're keeping it pretty simple, right? From what I can tell, you're just switching back and forth between G mixolydian and the G minor pentatonic scale (at the 12th fret)?
BUTLER
Exactly. That's really where the right hand comes in because if I was just running up and down those two scales if wouldn't be very impressive. Again, the key is to keep the picking hand as clean and tight as possible.
INTERVIEWER
Heavy metal guitarist's are generally known for their right hand / picking skills... Crazy fast tremolo picking and whatnot... I remember you saying you listened to some heaver music when you were growing up. Is that partially responsible for this?
BUTLER
Oh yeah. Definitely. I would have to say Panterra and Metallaca had a part in my development... That's where I learned how to lock my right hand in with the double bass and the high hat. So I would take that technique, and instead of using heavy distortion, I would play in cleanly. Actually, what the guys in Metallaca are doing is really impressive... They just feel the need to muddy up their sound with really heavy distortion, and because of that, you can't hear some of the finer points or nuances. Essentially, what I'm doing is kind of a Hard Rock or Heavy Metal technique, but I'm playing it clean, with a little delay.
INTERVIEWER
Any other contributing factors or suggestions for building up your picking hand?
BUTLER
Yeah, I started to really get the faster picking by playing the mandolin. At some point, I bought a little $150 Fender mandolin because I wanted to learn to play on a smaller fret scale. When I moved back to my gibson, it was like... You know how a Baseball player puts a weight on his bat to warm up, and once he takes if off the bat feels lighter or faster?
INTERVIEWER
Sure.
BUTLER
That's kind of what it felt like to go back to my Gibson. So yeah, that helped a lot. If you can get the picking technique down on a smaller instrument it just feels like butter when you switch back to a (full size) guitar.
INTERVIEWER
So the few months I've playing Bach's Sonatas and Partidas for solo violin on an flat top acoustic guitar (with a pick). The string gauge (on my acoustic) is significantly thicker than what I'm used to, so when I switch back to my electric, I'm just flying around... Which kind of goes back to the point you just made.
BUTLER
Oh yeah. You know, I use a much heaver (string) gauge than most guitarists. I put 12's on my eclectric and 13's on my acoustic. In my opinion, using a heaver gauge - especially on electric - makes it easier to get those clean arpeggios, and nice big bright sounding chords... When you strum them with a pick, you can really hear each individual string ring out, even if there is a little fuzz or crunch on it.
INTERVIEWER
I've heard tremolo picking all over the place, but what I really enjoy about yours is... Your lines are incredibly melodic. A lot of the other players are just playing fast for it's own sake - just running scales up and down - and consequently it's not very musical. From what I've picked up off the records, you don't seem to be limited in respect.
BUTLER
Well I appreciate that.. Thank you, I take that as a high compliment. Especially because thinking melodically is a big part of my approach. It's what I take the most care to do. Everything starts with the melody because and that's where the inspired or emotional feelings (about music) come from. What can be impressive is maybe the technique, picking and that kind of stuff... But to blend the two together is something I do that's - I'm sure it's not unique only to me - but it's certainly something that - I hope - makes my playing recognizable.
INTERVIEWER
It's incredibly difficult to develop a unique, signature sound. I think thats's something a lot of young players - myself included - struggle with. It's like we all have this idea that somehow, magically, you wake up one morning, and you have your own unique voice. However, it's definitely something you have going for you... I mean, I can pick out (the sound of) your guitar playing within - at most - a couple of seconds.
BUTLER
Thank you. I feel like that's one of the highest compliments I can get as an artist. Just in general, in the world of rock and roll, the guitar is not a mysterious instrument. Almost everybody has had a guitar in the corner at some time or another, and maybe they even tried their hand at learning a couple of chords. So it's not a new trick, or a very mysterious entity. Usually, people will say to me, "Oh, you know, you kind of sound like this guy, or your tone sounds that guy", but if I can get anyone to say what you just said - that you can recognize my playing almost instantly - I take that as a huge compliment.
INTERVIEWER
As a soloist, having a voice is of the utmost importance, but I imagine it takes a backseat, because in a group dynamic, it's all about connecting with the other guys on stage.
BUTLER
I very much believe in a collective group dynamic... You know, like to move collectively as a group. I don't really get turned on much, or care for the idea of just kinda 'going to town', or - for lack of a better word - noodling away.
INTERVIEWER
Yeah, that's pretty much the opposite of what you're supposed to be doing...
BUTLER
In some ways, that's where I think the Jamband adjective is almost a stigma, because I think for a lot of people it implies a sense of noodling, or a lack of direction. They see us as a bunch of musicians who just sort of meander aimlessly about.
INTERVIEWER
I'm glad you brought that up. That word - jamband - really annoys me. One of the reasons I started this blog is set the record straight about some of the misconceptions you just mentioned. The word jamband that says a lot more about the audience than the musicians.
BUTLER
Oh absolutely. I agree 100%.
INTERVIEWER
I started getting really serious about playing guitar around the time I moved back to Texas. I knew wanted to learn to improvise, so I pretty much just locked myself in a room for a couple of years and studied the master's... Coltrane, Miles, Wes Montgomery, Scofield, Pat Metheny and on down the list. As I said earlier, I've even spent a bunch of time of your stuff because to me, you're a jazz musician. Period. End of story. I believe Jazz is an idiom based around the concept of improvisation, not a particular sound, style or genre. And in that respect, there's no disconnect between the modal soloing on Miles Davis's Kind of Blue, and modal soloing on Perpetual Groove's Sun Dog.
BUTLER
I'm if you look at it that way, yeah, really the only common element between the bands that are called jambands, is the fact that they improvise, which definitely is a jazz thing...
INTERVIEWER
Exactly.
BUTLER
When people ask me, "what's the band like", I always try to give a little clarification. I'll say, "Well, you know, you hear a lot of people refer to us as a jamband, but for me, my ultimate description of Perpetual Groove is what I like to think of as a very anthematic, or big sounding Rock (band) with a lot of atmosphere - in a Pink Floyd kinda way - so that even if we're in a small room, we want to make the music sound and feel like it's massive, or like you're in the presence of something massive." Sonically that's what I hope that we are achieving.
INTERVIEWER
That's definitely the vibe I get at yall's shows, which goes into something I wanted to talk to you about... The experience of live music. Well more specifically the experience of live improvisation. There's a concept called, The Hose, which Carlos Santana coined to describe the free flowing improvisational style of Phish. Basically, the music is the water, and you - the musician - are the hose. His point being, that the music is like water rushing through you, and as a musician, your function is really like that of a hose. If you want to express pure music, or the music that's in your soul, you have you have to get yourself, and your ego out of the way. I feel that vibe a lot when I see you guys preform. Especially during some of your extended improvisations. You know, that what we're experiencing - as an audience - is pure, ego-less music.
INTERVIEWER
I think that's a very appropriate way to say it. It's almost where you're playing... Not mindlessly, because that almost implies a negative connotation, but more with just the absence of any calculation. You're playing on pure feel, or like you we're saying just letting the music flow through you. I've never sat down and done a traditional attempt at meditation, but my guess is it's a similar experience. When I'm in the deepest part of my playing, I don't have to look over to Albert to know what he's going to do because I can just feel it, almost telepathically. I'll hear Adam do a slight shift, and I'll lock into it automatically, without any eye contact whatsoever. That really how I like to feel, or I should say, that's the feeling I chase. I want to be locked in like that as much as possible.
INTERVIEWER
Actually, I was listening to an interview with Jim James (of My Morning Jacket), and I heard him talking about this same thing, but in a different context. So it must be kind of a universal aspect of the performing and playing music, because I don't think they do a whole lot of improvising. It's certainally not what they're know for...
BUTLER
They might not improvise as extremely as some of the bands we've mentioned, but they definitely change it up from what's on (studio) records. You can tell on one night that a version was a little more feel than that one, or even Pearl Jam for that matter. There's alot of these bands and they have different sections, Even Flow, could have a shorter guitar solo, or a very stretched out section, where Mike McCready goes on a whole different avenue than you've ever heard him go before.
INTERVIEWER
Since were talking about other bands, I guess I just kinda close with... I put together a list of my favorite albums of the past decade, and the funny thing is... Two of the ten are albums you turned me on to. The first is Sufijan Steven's album Illinois, which I forgot about for a couple of years, but I've come back to it recently, and it's aged incredibly well.
BUTLER
Yeah, that's a great album.
INTERVIEWER
And the second is The Secret Machine's album Now Here Is Nowhere... Which, if I remember correctly, had a pretty big influence on (PGroove's) sound at one point in time...
BUTLER
Oh yeah. Very much so. Adam and I wanted to have more of a Rock edge - with thick bass distortion - and I think they were a very good example of that. Plus, they have some really catchy hooks. The vocal lines, you remember those melodies, but at the same time, their songs have this thick bottom-end. Jack White has done that same kind of thing of with The Dead Weather and The Racounteers. Now there are a lot of these band using that Sub-Octave, Fuzz Bass Sound...
INTERVIEWER
So naturally, what recoreds have you been listening to lately?
BUTLER
Easy question! Three albums that everybody sound listen to... Noah in the Whale's The Last Night on Earth; Dawes, either one of their albums, but more specifically Nothing Is Wrong; and then there's a group with the lead singers of Dawes, Delta Spirit and Deer Tick called Middle Brother. All three of those albums are life-changers.
INTERVIEWER
Thanks again. It's great chat with you about this kind of stuff. I'll see you guys in Austin here in a couple of weeks.
What kind of music did your parents listen to while you were growing up?
HASTING
Dad was never really passionate about music, but I remember him playing artists like John Mellencamp and John Fogerty. Mom was into Parliament and a bunch of the old funk guys from the late 70’s and 80’s... Like Kool and the Gang, Michael Jackson, and The Average White Band. So, for the most part I grew up listening to dance music. That's probably when I started gaining a sense of rhythm.
INTERVIEWER
At what point did you pick up an instrument?
HASTING
My parents enrolled me in piano lessons when I was about 7 or 8 years old, but after a while I lost interest. I didn’t get serious about music until later.
INTERVIEWER
In High school?
HASTING
Yeah, I started playing guitar when I was about 16 or 17.
INTERVIEWER
Lessons?
HASTING
I took one lesson with my friend’s Dad when I was first starting out. He’s a really good musician, but just plays for fun. He taught me a few things, but for the most part it’s something I’ve done all on my own. You almost don’t need lessons anymore, because there’s so much material available on the internet. It’s always cool to have somebody give you a few pointers, or talk you through the psychology of guitar -- rather than just the actual notes, chords or changes you need to learn. I’ve had a little bit of that, but not much classical training.
INTERVIEWER
In hindsight, I feel like I’ve spent way too much time using books. The material that really ‘sticks’ in my playing seems to come from transcribing solos, and learning tunes (by ear). What kind of experiences have you had with transcription? Is it something you do regularly?
HASTING
Definitely. I’m always trying branch out by listening to different types of music.
INTERVIEWER
Are there any artists you've really focused on?
HASTING
I dug in deep with a bunch of Jeff Beck, John Scofield, Bill Frisell, Eivind Aarset and David Gilmore records. What really hit me was the stuff Beck released in the mid to late 90’s. It’s kind of a mix of metal and electronica... Which is similar to what I’m trying to accomplish in Zoogma. It’s also what made me want to get a whammy bar. Now I feel like I can’t play without one.
INTERVIEWER
How so?
HASTING
I'm always trying to think a bar (measure) ahead while I’m soloing. So now when I’m in the middle of a jam, or a solo I hear those kinda (whammy) sounds. For me it’s really nice to have something on the guitar -- whether it’s a tone control knob or a whammy bar -- to be more expressive.
INTERVIEWER
One of things I enjoy most - about your playing - is your guitar tone. What type of tone are you looking for when you're sound checking your gear?
HASTING
I like to have options because our (Zoogma's) music goes in alot of different directions. A nice clean tone, a good crunch tone and a big lead tone are essential for what we do. To get those, I use clean tube amp and some guitar pedals.
INTERVIEWER
Solid body or hollow body?
HASTING
For the first few years I only used hollow body guitars. Mostly because I liked the ‘airy’ tone. I never really messed around with the tone control knobs on those though.
INTERVIEWER
Why not?
HASTING
The sound I wanted was available by adjusting the volume knob up or down a couple notches. Also, I was still a bit new to the idea of tone.
INTERVIEWER
What kind of axe are you playing now?
HASTING
A Becker Retro solid body. It’s like a ‘Strat on Steroids’.
Justin Hasting of Zoogma
INTERVIEWER
What kind of steroids?
HASTING
It has a Seymour Duncan Little 59’ mini humbucker (pickup) in the neck, a Lindy Fralin single coil (pickup) in the middle and a full on Fralin humbucker (pickup) near the bridge. It also has specialty coil pads, switches, and LED’s on the fretboard, so that I can see each fret when it’s dark on stage. The coil switches are awesome because they allow me to get Strat sounds, Humbucker sounds, I can sort of mimic the sound of a hollow body, and can even get a heavy metal 'shred' sound out of it as well. All in all, I’m definitely turning more knobs than I was a few years ago.
INTERVIEWER
I play a Clapton Artist Series Strat so I know all about knob turning.
HASTING
With Mid Boost?
INTERVIEWER
Oh yeah! I have a bunch of different guitars laying around in my studio, but I always to go back to that one.
HASTING
I totally feel you. There’s just so many options with a Strat. It’s a really simple guitar, but it’s very vocal. You do have to work at it, but once you get the sound you’re looking for, it’s hard to go back.
INTERVIEWER
Is your sound constantly evolving?
HASTING
Absolutely. You can partly thank Brock Butler of Perpetual Groove for that. I think the guys in the band (Zoogma) would agree I’m the gear head of the group. I have a reasonably large pedalboard (See photo below) with multiple delays on it, distortions, flangers, wah wah pedals, and all kinds of weird stuff. I’m constantly trying to maximize my sonic palette... At the same time, I’m trying not to get excessive with it.
Justin's Pedalboard on October 12th, 2011
INTERVIEWER
I have trouble integrating new pedals into my sound. It seems like it takes me a while to get comfortable with a new piece of gear. How do guys like you - who are out on the road - integrate new equipment into their setup? Is it something that happens in woodshed, or in front of a live audience?
HASTING
I very rarely pick up something new - slap it on my pedal board - and take it out for a test drive in front of a live audience. Also, certain parts of my board never really change.
INTERVIEWER
Like what?
HASTING
Well, my distortions for one... I’ve tried to replace them with ‘nicer' things - that are more expensive - but they never live up to the hype. My core sound is: a volume pedal for swells, an old mxr phase 90 for jazzy or whirlly kinda sounds, a TS9 Tube Screamer, and a Pro Co Rat distortion... I also use another overdrive, it’s made by a company called Tone Monk Effects. They make a killer mid-range overdrive pedal called The Seed of Life. It has lots of options and sounds incredible.
INTERVIEWER
What about the others effects? Delay, reverb, etc?
HASTING
I tend to switch those out whenever I find something that has a couple extra features. Lately I’ve been using a Boss DD 20 delay which is like a Giga Delay with built in presets.
INTERVIEWER
Do you have a preset preference?
HASTING
Tape mode.
INTERVIEWER
What else do you have on your board?
HASTING
I use a Neunaber Wet reverb for spacey sounds, an old Boss tremolo, and a Hartman flanger. Recently, I found this other company that's making a digital tape emulator called a Strymon El Capistan (see video below). It’s basically just a digital tape echo unit, but what I like, is that you can control the amount of the delay in your sound with an expression pedal. There are certain songs we (Zoogma) play where I’ll use really long drenched delays, and the problem with the DD 20 is that you have to select your presets in an order.
INTERVIEWER
Would you mind expanding on that last bit?
HASTING
Sure. So say that I need to go from a long wet sounding delay directly into guitar solo. With the DD 20 I either have to turn the delay off completely, or tap it like 5 - 6 times to get it back to where it’s clean sounding again. Whereas with the Strymon, I can pull back on the expression pedal to adjust the amount of delay in my mix. It also has a button specifically designed for infinite delay.
Strymon El Capistan Demo Video
INTERVIEWER
Oh cool. I've always just called that freeze mode. Can you explain how that works? I have a feeling that some of the folks reading this might not understand what we're talking about...
HASTING
Infinite delay allows you to play a single note, chord, or phrase, and it will continue oscillating infinitely. This function really cool for dub/reggae stuff. You can hear that effect on countless old records. Also, it's really handy if you want to free yourself up to do something else.
INTERVIEWER
I've been using a (Line 6) DL - 4 delay pedal for about 5 years. It’s an awesome pedal, but there are some little things about it that frustrate me.
HASTING
Like what?
INTERVIEWER
The way it's designed forces you to toggle through the various presets by hand. It seems to me like they (Line 6) could design a simple footswitch to solve this problem. Often times I want to change presets without removing my hands from the instrument.
HASTING
I had a DL-4 for a while, but it was taking up too much real estate (on my pedalboard). The Auto-Swell preset is a really cool effect.
INTERVIEWER
It’s certainly not the most road friendly pedal on the market. I use it mostly as a looping pedal. Lately, I’ve been using it to practice a concept I'm calling 'free looping'. It's basically where I use it (DL-4) to get into extended, free, solo improvisations. Sometimes lasting more than an hour.
HASTING
How so?
INTERVIEWER
I’ll record a short rhythmic vamp - maybe 4 or 8 bars (measures) - and let it loop (repeat). Then I set up the DL-4 so it's always hot (microphone is on), and so that the loops are actively decaying. As the older loops slowly ‘roll off’, I add (improvise) new melodic and rhythmic ideas so that the music - like a lotus blossom - is in a constant state of unfolding.
HASTING
Cool. So you keep the repeats set at 3/4’s or a little less than full? Basically giving yourself a 15 to 30 second window to create a new layers as the old ones drench out?
INTERVIEWER
Exactly! The idea came to me while I was listening to a Keith Jarrett album. In the early 70’s, he performed a series of totally improvised solo piano concerts.
HASTING
I would love to perform free improvisation sets in a 3 piece - just a guitar, a bass and drums - but with us (Zoogma) it would be difficult.
INTERVIEWER
How do you mean?
HASTING
Because there are four other musicians on stage. One of the most difficult things for me is to integrate new sounds and textures - like loops and whatnot - without losing my place in the group dynamic. Actually, that's something Brock Butler (of Perpetual Groove) does extremely well.
INTERVIEWER
Have you seen (Brock) perform solo, with a looping pedal before? Where he will layer multiple loops and create the illusion of a 4 or 5 piece band.
HASTING
Definitely.
INTERVIEWER
I've never asked him, but if I had to guess, I'd imagine those performances help develop that ability. It really is amazing what you can do with just a few pedals and an acoustic guitar.
HASTING
When I was about 18 years old I started playing local coffeehouse gigs. At that time I was influenced by guy named Howie Day. He’s a big pop star now, but back then he was performing solo looping shows... Very similar to what Brock is doing.
INTERVIEWER
Really? I had no idea...
HASTING
Yeah, Howie would use an acoustic guitar and a few pedals to loop (and layer) a drumbeat, a bass line and a melody. Once he got a good groove setup behind him, he’d sing, so when I saw Brock do the same thing I was like, “Man, this just like Howie!” But I’ve never asked him if he picked up that technique up by listening to the old Howie Day stuff...
INTERVIEWER
I don’t know. It’s a damn good question.
HASTING
Go look up Howie Day playing Beams of Light from 2003 - 2004 (see video below), and you’ll see what I mean. This is the type of stuff I used to cover at coffeehouses.
Howie Day Performing Beams of Light
INTERVIEWER
I’ll definitely check that out. When did you switch over to the electric guitar?
HASTING
When I heard some Jimmy Hendrix, Grateful Dead, and PGroove. Those bands and players were my bridge to the electric guitar, which is a soloists artform. Eventually, leading me into the world of jazz, prog rock, blues, etc.
INTERVIEWER
How do you approach an your guitar solos? Do you think consciously about scales and chord tones?
HASTING
It varies song to song. Sometimes I stay in and around the one (or harmonic center), and other times, I’ll address specific chord changes.
INTERVIEW
Can you walk me through an example?
HASTING
Sure. I take a solo during the dubstep section of a song called Syllepsis, and usually I’m thinking (Jimmy) Hendrix the whole way through... Sometimes I’ll pick up a slide and tremolo pick like crazy all the way up the neck until we peak it out on the one chord.
INTERVIEWER
The art and science of improvisational soloing, seems, at least in the world of love electronica, to be a dieing artform. Why is that?
HASTING
I think it’s because it’s tough to find the right context to solo in when you’re playing (electronic) music. In my case, I’m constantly battling between, alright, do I play a solo here, or is this more of a building thing...
INTERVIEWER
That touches on another topic I’d like to ask you about: The concept of tension and release. Is that something you think about when your improvising? In my experience, if I think about it, or for that matter really anything, it just fucks up my mojo.
HASTING
I would completely agree with that statement. If you think too much, you can loose the moment. Ideally, I'm just reacting, following my ear and trying to really feel each note!
INTERVIEWER
Dizzy Gillespie suggested that players learn to create tension and release with rhythm patterns (like a drummer) instead of scales and chord tones. Is that something you’ve ever tried?
HASTING
Jazz musicians, like Dizzy, are the best at that style of playing. One of my biggest influences is John Scofield. He’s a truly phenomenal musician, but that’s something he’s particularly adept at... You know, playing rhythmically. I’ve been trying to do that some too. It’s a completely different mindset.
INTERVIEWER
It definitely runs counter to the whole harmonic doctrine of soloing. Actually, I’m a big John Scofield fan myself, and I had alot of trouble transcribing his solos at first...
HASTING
He can be tricky. There are certain parts of his music you can’t really transcribe because there are so many little nuances in his playing.
INTERVIEWER
His playing is so technically sound, yet so accessible. He’ll construct an entire solo around sequences of wide intervals - like 6ths or 7ths - and make it sound absolutely incredible. Horn players, like say, Sonny Rollins, sometimes take that approach, but it’s almost unheard of on the electric guitar.
HASTING
It's interesting you mentioned that, because I've always thought that Scofield gets a very saxophone esque sound out of his guitar. Especially when he does those crazy pull-offs and arpeggios. Have you heard the song Jungle Fiction? It’s a jazzy, drum and bass, jungle groove kinda thing. I love the section in the middle where he’s just feeling the shit out of it!
Jungle Fiction by The John Scofield Band.
INTERVIEWER
Oh yeah! He gets WAY outside the harmonic center in that section. I'm pretty sure he's just playing an altered dominant or diminished scale like it's going out of style. The first record he cut with Medeski, Martin & Wood, A Go Go , is one of my all time favorite LP's.
HASTING
That’s a great album. Out Louder was pretty good too.
INTERVIEWER
I'm going to finish up with a few questions about the experience of improvising. Are you familiar with a concept Phish kids affectionally call The Hose? Where music flows through you like water through a hose.
HASTING
I think so. It’s definitely an interesting concept. Sometimes I feel that type of energy as an audience member. It feels like you’re participating in something, but you’re not sure how...
INTERVIEWER
Not just as an audience member, but also as a musician... Occasionally, when I’m improvising this thing starts happening, and it feels like the music, or the notes, are flowing through me... That I’m not actually creating anything... But more I’m just channeling something that's already there... Essentially, I'm a vessel for the music. And in my experience, it transports you into a sort of transcendental state of consciousness. It’s an incredibly intoxicating feeling. Infinitely superior to anything I’ve experienced via alcohol or drugs.
HASTING
When I have time, I play in a Reggae band here in Oxford led by good friend of mine. He has this whole 'performance philosophy based around this concept... Basically, he won't use drugs of any kind before the show. He wants to know that the music is getting him high; not the drugs. I’ve pretty much adopted the same approach because I find that - if I let it - music (alone) will take me to the most incredible places. You can't control it, or try to make it happen, but when it does it's the ultimate high you can experience as an artist.
INTERVIEWER
It seems that the more I get out of the way... And allow the music to flow through me... The better the result.
HASTING
Couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, the live performance dynamic can get in the way of those existential - or as you called them - transcendental moments. There are so many factors at play: sound issues, problems with your gear, loading in, loading out, the lights, the people, the atmosphere, etc. But when everything clicks, its magical, and its easily the most rewarding part of what I do.
